Matt and Sean talk about the release of all stakes in Star Trek TOS Season 3, Episode 14, “Whom Gods Destroy.”

Sean’s comic collection goes on sale July 3rd. Details here: https://www.whatnot.com/s/VMjS3uri

Chapters

  • 0:00: Intro
  • 3:26: Today's episode
  • 5:12: This time in history
  • 7:51: Episode discussion

Transcript

Intro

Sean Ferrell: Welcome, everybody, to Trek in Time, where we're taking a look at all of Star Trek in chronological stardate order. Yes, we started way back at Enterprise, and here we are, 232 episodes later. We're almost done with the original series. Matt, I don't know about you, but things aren't working out the way I thought they would. Let's do a podcast. It's about Star Trek.

Matt Ferrell: It'll be fun. Will it?

Sean Ferrell: Will it? It's been fun. I joke. We are watching all of Star Trek in chronological stardate order and we're taking a look at the world at the time of original broadcast. So we've been talking lately about the 60s, and as we finish up with the original series, which, as by my count, is just a few episodes away, it looks like maybe a month and a half, we'll suddenly find ourselves in the movies and we'll be skyrocketing through the 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond until we're finally, guess what, Matt? Gonna land in the Next Generation. I know that Matt's looking forward to that, and I am as well, and I'm sure a lot of people in our audience are, too. And who am I? Well, I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi and I write some horrors. As a matter of fact, I have a horror novel coming out next year, 2027. For anybody who's watching or listening, this in 2028. And with me, as always, is my brother Matt. He is that Matt behind Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives. And, Matt, how are you doing? You've been enjoying for the past two weeks a lovely head and chest cold.

Matt Ferrell: So, oh, yeah, it's been a lot of fun. You might notice me muting my mic every once in a while as we talk today, because I'll be having a coughing fit. But, Sean, before we move on, what

Today's episode

Sean Ferrell: is the title of your book?

Matt Ferrell: You did not tell us the title of your book.

Sean Ferrell: Oh, the title of my book is in the Fields We Thirst. It is a horror story set in World War I and more. As we move forward in time, it's going to be a while before it's out. It will be out in April of 2020, so there's plenty of time for me to talk about it. Right now I am literally eyeball deep in edits, and I'm at that stage of edits which basically can be summed up as, oh, my God, what have I done? This shall pass. I know it will. It will all be great. It will all be fine. I will get through this. I've done this before. But in this moment, it really is. Oh, my God. I need a writer. I need a writer's dad. Today we're going to be talking about the episode Whom Gods Destroy. This is the 69th episode of the original series produced. The 71st aired overall, the 14th of the third season. It's a lot of numbers. And it aired originally on January 3, 1969. That's right, Matt. We cannot get closer to the beginning of 1969 than this very episode. I haven't looked ahead. I haven't looked at dates. I cannot guarantee we're not going to dip back into 1968 for an episode or two. I'm hoping we don't, because if we do, we're going to be talking about hey Jude and I don't want to do that. So let us now talk about whom God's destroyed. That noise you hear those lights? You see? That's the read alert. It's time for Matt to tackle the Wikipedia description. Matt, don't be too confused if this sounds somewhat familiar.

Matt Ferrell: Captain Kirk visits a mental health facility and confronts an insane starship captain who believes he is destined to control the universe. I see what you mean, John. We've seen that before.

This time in history

Sean Ferrell: We've seen this before. So here we are, January 3, 1969. Strangely just a year and a half removed from the start of the series in which an episode that basically had the same plot existed, but a very different world. 1968 changed so much from presidential elections to the attempt to de escalate the Vietnam War. The escalation of the Vietnam War, the assassination of a presidential hopeful and a civil rights leader. So very different era and only two years after the original series began. But what were some of the details about this early days of 1969? Well, Matt, you may have heard this through the grapevine. The number one song was I Heard it through the Grapevine. Take it away, Matt. As always, if I close my eyes, I would swear Marvin Gaye was singing through my earphones. And the number one film this week, just like last week, this would be a two week number one spot. Good grief, it's candy. Yes. This is the movie that Matt and I talked about last week. A film that neither of us had ever heard of before. Written by Buck Henry, one of my favorite comedy writers of the late 60s, responsible for what's Up Doc? Which is one of the funniest movies ever made. As far as I'm Concerned. And this one being a sex farce that included a cast that includes Marlon Brando, Richard Burton, James Coburn, John Huston, Walter Mattho, Ringer, Ringo Starr, John Astin and Sugar Ray Robinson. Yes, you wondered if there was a party game you might play in which you had to name name six people who've probably been in a room together. You wouldn't have thought Sugar Ray Robinson would be in that list, but you'd be wrong. On television, we've been taking a look at 1969's top programming. Last week we talked about Gunsmoke. Yes, of course, Gunsmoke is going to be up there the week before that, Ronan Martin's Laugh in and the Number Three show for 1969.

It's not too much of a surprise either. It's Bonanza. We have many of the programs that we've talked about over the past 60 odd episodes of this podcast as we've been talking about the original series. It's no surprise that we're going to see these shows when we talk about what was popular at the time and in the news on this day in 1969. From the New York Times, a bunch of local news around school board work, the superintendent, relationship to city government. This is something that, as a New Yorker, I can tell you they didn't solve any of these problems in 1969. How do I know that? Because they're still talking about all these problems in 2026. But the headline I wanted to point out was US offers plans to End Deadlock in Vietnam Talks. Spoiler. It won't work on now to our discussion about this episode, Whom Gods Destroy. I know what I want to talk about in this conversation, Matt, but I'm going to throw it your way because I started last week's conversation.

Episode discussion

So why don't you lead us off about your feelings about an episode in which Kirk and Spock find themselves at a mental institution which is attempting to solve mental illness once and for all, and they find themselves trapped by a madman.

Matt Ferrell: Well, Sean, my feelings about this episode are complicated because there was a big picture. There was a little bit of a flashback to last week where we talked about how the show technically was fine. It's fine. But it felt like it went on too long for me. It just felt like they were doing the same thing, the same exact thing, through three acts. It didn't feel like there was a real strong progression of tension being built, all those kind of things happening. We can't get in the details, but one of my big pet peeves was they blew up a girl on camera in a fairly besetting way.

Sean Ferrell: Yeah.

Matt Ferrell: Yeah. But they waited to do that until like, literally, like six minutes before the end of the episode. And it was like that, if you had done that 20 minutes in, would have ratcheted up the tension and then made everything after that way more tense. But they didn't. So my big complaint about this one was the structure and the storytelling just felt very repetitive. You joked about it with the description of what this is about. Yeah, the exact plot we have seen before. So it's a plot we know. And then it was like a plot script that felt like it would have been 20 minutes of an episode, but they took the same kind of sequence and just kept repeating it three times and then blew up the girl. So it's kind of like. It makes it sound like I'm saying you need to blow up girls to make it exciting. I'm not saying that, but there's a.

Sean Ferrell: There's a book on screenwriting called Save the Cat. You should write a screenwriting book called Blow up the Girl.

Matt Ferrell: It's Blow up the Girl.

Sean Ferrell: Blow up the Girl. It is, Yeah. I completely agree. And I love the summary of it just repeated three times and then they blew up the girl. I couldn't agree more with. I mean, we've seen this setting and Star Trek is going to repeat itself all the time. I mean, we see it like every series does their version of X, and that's fine. Bottle episodes will sometimes feel repetitive. Like. And I'm fine with. I'm fine with repetition. If there's a specific newness of flavor, it's a little bit like chicken is always going to be chicken. This chicken has saffron, this chicken has black pepper. So there's your newness. So it's like very similar cooking techniques, but a different flavor. This one edges up against things, but choices are made and the script is written in a way. And this is something that came up last week for us. I really feel like they knew it was over. They gave up and they had a list of plots. They just turned to a group of writers and said, okay, you do this one, you do this one, you do this one, you do that one. And then when the first draft was done, they shot it. And in this episode, I also feel like they may have cast people in this episode based on let's get this person some work so that they maybe can get some other jobs as opposed to casting people in a way that makes sense. The woman that they blow up is Yvonne Craig, she was Batgirl, the Batman TV show. We should give her her due because Batgirl effectively started in. In the TV show and then was brought into the comic books later and is considered a pivotal character for DC Comics. So that's in no small part due to Yvonne Craig. She is extremely charismatic. She's likable on screen. She does a great job in this episode with what they gave her, which was not a lot, but she really kind of like, chews the scenery in some interesting ways. There's a lot of scenery chewing from everybody.

Matt Ferrell: You're telling me two episodes in a row we have Batman actors?

Sean Ferrell: Yes.

Matt Ferrell: We had the Riddler last week.

Sean Ferrell: We had the Riddler followed by Batwoman this week. Yes, yes.

Matt Ferrell: Okay, so. All right. Just want to make clear. I just want to make that clear.

Sean Ferrell: Yeah, yeah. So there's a definite. There's. There's like a. There's like a bat pole from the Batman soundstage right down to the Star Trek soundstage. They don't give her a lot to do, but what they do give her is memorable. I like the aspects of her saying, I wrote a poem and then she reads Shakespeare. You didn't write that. Like. Like, did you know? The fact that it was written hundreds of years ago doesn't change the fact that I wrote it this morning. I love that line. But mainly Steve Innat as Captain Garth. The actor himself, I find very charismatic. Matt, are you familiar with Rick Mayall, the British comedian? He died young. He was. He was a. He was not that old when he passed. He was 56. So he was rather young when he passed. But he was in the Young Ones, and he was in Drop Dead Fred, and he had a quality that was strangely similar to Inet. And so I found myself kind of captivated by this performer for his kind of stature and the way he kind of carries himself. And I found myself thinking, like, what happened to him? And it turns out, in a strange twist of fate, Steve Innatt also died as an even younger man. He would pass away in 1972 at the age of 37. I found myself thinking, like, what. What an odd coincidence between him and Male, who he reminds me of. Male was a comic actor as opposed to being more like in. At with being a dramatic actor. But there's a kind of cadence to the delivery, a kind of way of carrying themselves and a kind of. In Inat's performance in this one, I like the way that he had that kind of wildness in the eye that spoke more than the lines he was saying, because the Lines he's saying are largely at certain points, he's petulant and immature. And it doesn't come across as. As the kind of deep, troubling villain that I think that the story kind of wanted it to be. It's not. Yeah, it's not grounded in a place.

And I found myself thinking, wow, what a missed opportunity for them to have created a character. My first thought was like, this could have been a con like character. And then I thought, what if it had been kind of the. From Starfleet Academy, the villain from that who plays a kind of madman, his background, his tortured childhood, the kind of neurotic psychotic take he has on responsibility. This role here could have been like that. And I found myself thinking, if this didn't feel like such a first draft, what might a third or a fourth draft have felt like? If they had crafted out a character who was. He's. They kept saying, your illness made you mad. Your illness has affected you. You got this injury, this illness did this to you. What if instead it was simply ptsd? They refer to him as being the winner of a war. The Battle of Axanar is still taught at the Academy. What if the presentation here had been in a very 1969 way, about the horrors of war and what it does to those we send to fight on our behalf. There's a Next Generation episode which I believe is in the first or second season about that very topic. Like, there is this storyline about like, they sent us away, we won their war, and then they don't want us to come back. And I found myself looking at this and thinking what an amazing episode this could have been if Captain Kirk was coming with the cure for mental illness. To find a man who had taken over an asylum and had a moral and just argument to make, as opposed to, this is effectively just a Batman villain, kind of goofy, and he's. And he's bad to be bad. And he blows up a girl in the third act.

And it's just like I found myself thinking, missed opportunity, missed opportunity, missed opportunity more than anything else.

Matt Ferrell: I mean, that ties into one of my notes about this episode, which was, boy, the portrayal of mental illness. Kind of questionable in this entire episode because they were playing it like Saturday morning cartoon of like, these people have a mental illness, so they're crazy. And everybody is chewing scenery and acting crazy. And it's that over the top cartoonish portrayal of somebody who's insane. And that, as we know today, is not remotely accurate to the different various, like being bipolar, ptsd, all these different mental. Mental challenges and illnesses people might have. There's so much nuance to this. I keep thinking of like One who Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest. Yeah. It's like you could have had multiple styles of insanity and portrayal, but everybody was just walking around chewing scenery. Everybody was just doing the same thing. This one note, over the top, screaming at the top of your lungs, being wild with the wild look in your eye. And it made me think about the same thing of. This guy could have been terrifying if he vacillated between this a little bit of more a mania moments and then other moments just quiet, just directness where he seems completely rational but terrifying and then flipping into mania and then flipping back. So if they had done that with him, it would have been a little more scary. It could have been a con like villain. Yeah, that would have carried more weight. But the fact that he was just this cartoonish, insane guy, it just cut the legs out from underneath the entire episode. There was no real tension in anything until the girl blew up. So.

Sean Ferrell: Yeah, until the girl blew up. And I think to dive a little bit more into like the first draft, itis of this and it doesn't have tension, it doesn't have stakes. One of the things about this episode that I do love is the okay, beam me up. Queen to queen's level three. And he's just like, what the fuck is that supposed to mean? It doesn't have a. He's like, what? Why are you talking about that now? Well, this is what we agreed upon. And like, he throws a tantrum. Now you give me a villain who maybe has said to Kirk in a dismissive way, you consider yourself a Starfleet captain. I am the one who invented what a Starfleet captain has to be. I am the one who had to go in and win that war. I am the one who defined all the rules that you operate under. But you get to do it without any hardship. And I didn't have that luxury. So I am going to take back my opportunity to have fun in the galaxy and I'm going to do it with your ship and I'm going to do it with your face. And nobody's going to see it coming. And then to go and be told, queens to Queens Level 3, and have him throw a tantrum would have shown. Okay, this guy is conniving. He maybe even has some legitimate arguments to make, but he's also out of control. And that tantrum, I like the tantrum. I like what Scotty and Sulu are doing with Uhura. Is constantly in the background. She's like, I'm trying to get them up on the. Up on the con and. Or up on the radio. And Sulu is probing the shield and trying to figure out the weakest point. And Scotty and McCoy are having very clearly. All of that was shot in about 15 minutes. They're all. Yeah, they're all on the bridge. You know, the director was just like, okay, you guys are done filming that other episode. Okay, everybody get in front of the camera, and we're gonna run through this. 1, 2, 3, go. And they just say these things, and they never leave the bridge.

And it is all super quick. It was probably shot 20 minutes. But the problem is, where the girl blew up should have been at the beginning. And where Queen's Gambit 3 was planted should have been toward the end. Because the moment Scotty says, we have a passcode and it was your idea, we know he's never getting aboard the Enterprise. It removes all the tension. And I was just like, why would you do that? They do it, like, 15 minutes into the episode. And then I'm like, if you hadn't had that. If the entire episode is the cat and mouse game inside the asylum, and who can be trusted and who can't be, and is this person a patient? Or are they actually threatening me? And it culminates with him turning himself into Kirk and going and getting on the radio and saying, beam me up. And we're all like, oh, no. And then Scotty pulls that out. It's going to be like, ha, ha. They did it. But instead, they do it in the first act, and we're left there like, they're never getting off that planet. Scotty keeps saying, what if they're already dead? We as an audience know they're not. If the entire episode took place aboard the Enterprise, and it's just like, oh, my gosh, what happened to them? We don't know even know if they're alive. He didn't know the passcode. That is a pitch for a really great other episode. Imagine an episode completely aboard the Enterprise with Scotty in command, and he sees Captain Kirk say, beam me up. And he's like, give me the passcode. And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And. And then you have an episode where they're on the ship and they're like, what happened to our captain? Like, that wasn't him. What happened to Spock? Where are they? Are they safe? That would have been a great episode.

Like, this is A first draft.

Matt Ferrell: The thing I liked the most about this entire episode, and you're gonna laugh when I say this, but was the ending. But I liked when it was over. Sean. I liked my favorite part of this entire episode was the Kirk on Kirk action. It's like once we got into the Kirk on Kirk fight, when Spock comes busting in and it's Kirk and Kirk who's the real Kirk. Whole sequence to the end, I freaking loved. It's like I thought it was really fun. They actually had a stunt double that kind of sort of passed.

Sean Ferrell: It looked like Shatner. Right. So it was good.

Matt Ferrell: Yeah, it was. They didn't have a redhead fighting him. So it like, it like you could

Sean Ferrell: tell who weighed 50 pounds.

Matt Ferrell: It felt like, yes, exactly. Somebody who's half his weight and half his age. It was clearly somebody that kind of the same. Similar body type, everything like that. So it was really well done. The fight was pretty cool. And then the whole trying to get Spock to figure it out was a little ham fisted. But it led to my favorite moment at the end when Kirk says yes and congratulations. What. What took you so long about the, like, what took you so long to figure out who was the real cap that could be real captain? And Spock's reaction to that. What he says back about like the. Oh, well, he's. I was waiting for him to just beat you. Cause I knew he would beat you. Yeah. Which I thought was the best response. The character development and the jokes and the humor between characters we love at the end. And that fight, I thought was actually probably the highlight of the entire episode for me. So I might be slightly forgiving on this episode because it ended on kind of a nice, kind of like palate cleanser after the lack of tension and 40 minutes of just really nothing happening.

Sean Ferrell: Yeah. I find myself in the same territory as last week where I'm like, I don't hate it, but it wasn't good. Yeah, it's just, it's just like maybe this would have been. If you gave me a fourth draft of the same story. I bet it would have been really great. And if you'd had different casting, mainly of the main villain. I didn't even mention this. Like, this actor was three years younger than Shatner and Shatner is saying, they still teach your maneuvers at the Academy. I'm like, yes. You couldn't find in all of Hollywood there was not a 50 year old actor available. Give me a seasoned actor who is playing this as I am grounded and I am dangerous and I am angry at how I was treated. I've been locked up here because I turned into who needed me to be to win that war. And that war, as I mentioned, was Axanar. Matt, does the name Axanar mean anything to you?

Matt Ferrell: Nope.

Sean Ferrell: Okay. Would it surprise you if I told you that Axanar is responsible for Paramount's shutdown of fan fiction and fan made film around Star Trek? How there was at the beginning of this century a Kickstarter where an individual was raised money in order to make a prequel story based on this episode. It proved very successful and it gained more and more steam. And over the multiple years it reached a point where another Kickstarter was done and more money than was anticipated was raised. And they were filming, they were writing and they were able to use special effects techniques. I would, I would say like Babylon 5, but a bit better. Pretty compelling special effects. It finally reached a point where Paramount went from, oh, it's, we don't really bother people who make their own things. Because of course people who make their own things are doing it with late 20th century. It looks not so great, the acting is not going to be so great. Like they're keeping Star Trek alive. But who, you know, we don't really bother with it. But this was becoming a moneymaker and it was becoming a moneymaker in a way that Paramount woke up to and it turned into a major lawsuit that ended up changing how Paramount responds to fan based projects like this. Axanar as a thing still exists. Axanar was basically as part of the negotiations of closing out, the lawsuit was given the ability to finish their project. There has been a lot of fan grumbling around the fact that a lot of what was promised in the Kickstarters never manifested. But I think it was due to a lot of hobbling by the lawsuit itself. But a lot of stuff was shot, a lot. There was a plan to make a feature length film that would then be self released. And they ended up being given the authorization to be able to take what was supposed to be a feature film, release it in two segments, two smaller segments.

They had from the first Kickstarter completed what was basically a fake documentary about the battle of Axanar in which the filmmaker himself played the character of the villain in this episode. So it is supposed to be 20 years prior to the original series. It is supposed to be the Four Years War, as it was known between the Federation and the Klingon Empire. And the war is not going well for the Federation and it speeds up development of The Constellation class starship, which is, of course, what the Enterprise is. So it's the Federation trying to build this new class of starship. And one is built in time to enter the war. And on the other side, the Klingons are relying on their D6 style Klingon cruiser. And when the Constellation class comes in, they have to speed up their development of the D7, which is the type of Klingon cruiser we see in the original series. So it's this prequel which is about this conflict. The Klingons have no respect for the Federation. They're basically steamrolling them. And it's about the growing respect within the Klingons toward a Federation that's actually able to defend itself. Some of the stuff that you can find if you go to the Axanar YouTube page includes, you can watch the original fake documentary. They are releasing stuff out of curiosity. I went to it today. They're releasing stuff as of, like, the past couple of weeks. So there's still stuff coming out. And the stuff that's coming out, I ended up watching a few minutes of one particular thing, which was a brief film where it was the character of Saval, Ambassador Saval, who was a character on Star Trek Enterprise. He was the Vulcan ambassador who was so contentious with the humans in that series. It's him talking to an aide and they are having effectively a little debate about whether or not Vulcan should leave the Federation.

And he is making the argument, well, if we leave, others will as well and it will be the beginning of the end. The Klingons will roll over all of us individually, but if we stay together, we're stronger. Really good special effects. Long opening sequence showing a starship coming toward Vulcan, a shuttle swooping over the desert, moving toward the main city. Like it was. I was watching and I was just like, this is really pretty good. And the character of Seval is played by Gary Graham, who was the actor who played Saval in Enterprise. So among the actors who were a part of the Axanar project included Gary Graham as Ambassador Saval, J.G. hertzler as Captain Samuel Travis, Kate Vernon as Captain Sonia Alexander. And then these two were the names that really kind of like popped out at me. Richard Hatch, who was, of course, in the original Battlestar Galactica TV show. He played Klingon Supreme Commander Karn, and Tony Todd, who was. Yes, that Tony Todd, who played Worf's brother, who was Candyman. Yeah, who sadly just passed away, what, a year ago? Two years ago. He plays Admiral Marcus Ramirez. This was a fan Started project. They raised enough money to get the attention of these actors to be in this thing. The second Kickstarter really took off, they were shooting for $100,000. They ended up getting 600,000 because of one, let's see, what was his name again? George Takei, who found out about and liked the project and went to. Yes, he went to the Twitter machine and was just like, I like this. And everybody ran to Kickstarter and threw money at it. Part of the negotiations with Paramount around what to do with this was no actors can be paid to be in it. That was part of the hobbling of like, you keep it, you. It has to be fan service. It can't be sold. You can't have paid professional actors. It has to be a passion project.

So, Matt, if you and I decided we were going to run around in my backyard with toy phasers and pretend that we were, you know, in Starfleet and then released it on YouTube, it would be 1 embarrassing and 2 allowed. But if we tried to hire actors to do that and then put it on YouTube and charge a fee for it, that is not allowed. So this was the beginning of the end of Paramount, CBS effectively letting the fandom do their own thing, which was part of what kept Star Trek alive for all those decades. So it's, it's a, it's, it's sad. It's, you know, I understand the corporate need to like, we need to have some sort of limits about what we do and don't allow. From what I've seen, if these people had actually produced a feature length movie that was up on YouTube, first of all, nobody was going to confuse it with official CBS films.

Matt Ferrell: It has nothing to do with that though. It has nothing to do with that. If they did, if they allowed this to happen, they would lose control of their ip. There's legal reasons why they would have to do this. I'm not taking the side of the corporation, but they have to do that or they lose it.

Sean Ferrell: But I'm like, isn't there a middle ground where it could have been maybe, okay, you can do this with our blessing. If we have a stake, if we have crediting, if we like you go through an official process of review in order to get the endorsement and then that allows you to do some of the things you might want to do with it. Like you can't pay your actors unless we give you approval and then you can pay them like it. Maybe there's middle ground there, but I don't know. I end up looking at this thing online and I was like, this is. This is kind of cool. Like watching a scene that's not from an official show in which Saval is making an argument about why Vulcan needs to stay in the Federation as a part of the character arc. For my headcanon from Enterprise, I found it really kind of fun. So I don't know if anybody in our audience is familiar with Axanar. If you are, jump into the comments. Let us know what you think about it. If you have any suggestions of, like, where to start with it, because I came to it, I had heard about it over the years but never really paid close attention to it. So if anybody in our audience is like, oh no, here's what you should watch first and here's some other things, drop into the comments. I'd love to see what you have to say. So having said all of that, next week we are going to be talking about Mark of Gideon. Please jump in the comments. Wrong answers only. What is Mark of Gideon about? Here's a starter for some of you. It's about a guy named Mark. You know where he's from? Matt?

Matt Ferrell: Gideon.

Sean Ferrell: He's from Gideon. So take it from there. As always, jump into the comments. Let us know what you thought about this episode that we just talked about. Do you agree with Matt and I that it's a lot of samey Samy? Or is there something about this one that stands out to you that makes you really enjoy it? We look forward to hearing what you have to say and as always, liking subscribing, sharing with your friends. Those are all very easy ways for you to support the podcast. If you want to support us directly, you can go to trekintime show. Click the button that says Join. It'll make you an ensign. You'll get to throw some coins at our heads and you'll be subscribed for our spin off program out of Time, in which we talk about things that don't fit within the confines of this program. We hope you'll be interested in checking that out. Also, quick plug for my my comic book collection back here. Down below in the show notes, there's going to be a link. A friend of mine is helping me sell these comics through whatnot, which is like a live auction site, sort of like ebay with a streaming aspect to it. Check out that link, keep an eye on it and you can see what comics I am selling. If anybody is interested in comics, I hope you'll check out the show. Anyway, thank you so much everybody for taking the time to watch or listen, we'll talk to you next time.